This is my theory of how goku achieved a pwr lvl of over 5,000,000 with the kao-ken

This might explain how goku used the Kaio-ken x’s 20, he didn’t really use it x’s 20, just kao-ken 1, 5 times (300,000 to 600,000 to 1,200,000 to 2,400,000 to 4,800,000 to 9,600,000 enough to go super saiyan and after super saiyan pwr lvl would be 24,000,000) and in that case it would only cost him 300 hits which he COULD survive, and consider that he was healing 48 hits every 5th round he could have very easily survived doing that….hmmm……i think i might just be a smart a**, i mean smarty pants!


JJ: There’s only one problem here: Goku’s regeneration. According to the books it should be 48 hits, yes. However, it would be every FOURTH phases, not 5th round. Remember that a round is four phases, so 5 rounds is 20 phases. Also, the hits taken by a Kao Ken don’t regenerate until you drop the Kao Ken (I think anyway).

Tamahome^^X: And if I were Mike Pondsmith, I’d tell you, you can only use the Kaio-ken once and NOT one on top of the other without consuming the borrowed/temporary increase in energy. Otherwise, it would defeat the purpose of having other Kaio-ken Levels. I’d also say “nice try” though.

Rushwood: well….. from that point of view, ya just can’t, sure, but then again how is it more possible that goku could somehow withstand the expenditure of over 30,000,000 hits…….kao-ken x’s 20 is VERY taxing. and no, doing a lvl 1 multiple times doesn’t make higher lvls useless, it takes more time to do, 1 kao ken / phase, double your power, but if you need it NOW then you need to do a higher kao-ken. also, the regeneration thing, so i got my terms mixed up, and it it every 5th phase, you heal at the begining of a new round, and a round doesn’t begin at the 4th, it is 4 rounds long, soooooooo, at round 5, round 9, round 13 (i don’t think i’ve had a fight last much longer than that……) and so on and so forth. anyway…..

Donovan Morningfire Version (10/31/2001)

Just my two bits, but why not just go Kaio-Ken level x60? i.e. KK1 costs 60 Hits, KK2 costs 120, KK3 costs 180, KK5 costs 300, KK10 costs 600, and so on. Allow the guy in question to apply his defense, and there ya go. Granted it still breaks down a bit where Goku is concerned, but what else can ya do (except bump Goku’s Hits and Defense up)?


JJ: Well, a KK20 would still do 1200 Hits of damage to Goku’s 200 Def and 400 Hits. That’s still 600 damage over what he could take, so, I agree that he probably just did little jumps….. either that or the higher your body skill the less damage it does. Hey! Maybe I’ll write up a house rule for that! I’ll post it in about two hours (or less).

Christian Conkle Version 1 (10/30/2001)

Every assumes that every +x1 doubles the cost in Hits. But what if that’s not the case? What if every +x1 simply increases the cost by +60? The pattern holds true, since we only have a very limited example to work from.
a x2 Kaio Ken costs x6 = 960 x11 = 30,720 x16 = 983,040
x2 = 60 x7 = 1920 x12 = 61,440 x17 = 1,966,080
x3 = 120 x8 = 3840 x13 = 122,880 x18 = 3,932,160
x4 = 240 x9 = 7680 x14 = 245,760 x19 = 7,864,320
x5 = 480 x10 = 15,360 x15 = 491,520 x20 = 15,728,640 Hits

a +60 Kaio Ken costs x6 = 660 (+240) x11 = 2760 (+540) x16 = 6360 (+840)
x2 = 60 x7 = 960 (+300) x12 = 3360 (+600) x17 = 7260 (+900)
x3 = 120 (+60) x8 = 1320 (+360) x13 = 4020 (+660) x18 = 8220 (+960)
x4 = 240 (+120) x9 = 1740 (+420) x14 = 4740 (+720) x19 = 9240 (+1020)
x5 = 420 (+180) x10 = 2220 (+480) x15 = 5520 (+780) x20 = 10,320 Hits (+1080)

10 thousand Hits is nothing to sneeze at, but still way more reasonable that 15 million! As you can see, it even follows the demonstrated pattern (if not necessarily the spirit of the rule).

Unfortunately, Goku still only had 400 Hits to spend, and a recovery of only 48.

Hmm. That blows my theory out of the water. Though my numbers still hold up scientifically. Oh well, this is why I usually stay away from debates about modelling things that actualy happened in the show.


Rushwood: that is an interesting theory, and i know it can be hard for those types of techniques, especially since they never say how much it affects certain things. just a bit of info for me though, did they actually say that he used the kao-ken x’s 20? or just that he had been using it through the whole fight? seems to me that in the flashback (king kai telling them that goku had used the kao-ken) he used it in spurts, like just before hitting freeza, or zipping away from something, or maybe it was just that was when the aura flared, ’cause it hadn’t before that point, either way, cc has a point, goku has no possible way of tolerating that massive of a kao-ken, the hits (even if it’s a smaller increase between stages) loss would be too great, you saw how much x’s 1 tore him up the first time he used it, and i assume this would be the first time x’s 20 so… x’s 3 almost killed him during that fight with vegeta on earth (he couldn’t have taken that much in hits then either) so what i’m thinking is maybe a combonation of what cc said above, the increase in hits lost is smaller than double each lvl, and possibly he used it slowly, little by little increasing the amount of ki he was holding, though you also need to realize, when he did go ssj he was relaxed, fairly happy, then BAM! freeza killed cullilin and he raged (saiyan rage i assume is a given here, so maybe he didn’t even use kao ken that high, the rage would have pushed him over the 5,000,000 mark without being that high to begin with) and unless i’m remembering wrong (i don’t have my book on me) saiyan rage doubles pwr lvl so a kao-ken x’s 10 really would be more than enough (x’s 10 would give him 3.3 million then rage goes up to 6.6 million easily beating the 5 mill. req. and that way only a cost of 30720 hits………hmmm still a bit high there…. but like cc said, better than 15 million) and you might even be able to give him a few near deaths during the fight that he recovered from, so with the max available from near death (x’s 4) 300,000 jumps to 1.2 million to 4.8 million, so then we say maybe only kao ken x’s 1 or rage……hmmmm i think i’m rambling on too many possibilities here, anyway, i’m just trying to avoid writing my psych paper…..gya!

Christian Conkle Version 2 (10/31/2001)

Oh, wait. I just thought of something else, and Rushwood’s original post inspired me.

Okay, Let’s suppose that the Kaio Ken takes some time to perform. You don’t get it all in 1 Phase, but spread out over lots of Phases.

Let’s say Goku does the x20 Kaio Ken using the method I mentioned above that costs him 10,320 Hits. Well, what if it cost him 10,320 Hits over a 20 MINUTE EPISODE??? Spreading the damage out over time so he can recover some of it.

Let’s do the math.. 20 minutes = 400 Phases, 100 Rounds. He’d then lose 26.8 Hits per Phase, 103.2 Hits per Round. He recovers 48 Hits per Round, so he really only takes 55.2 Hits per Round.

Okay, so he’s out of it in 7 Rounds. That blows my theory out of the water again.

Yeah, even at 10,320 Hits, Goku would have to spread the damage out 198 Rounds, or just under 40 minutes, in order to stay conscious.

That’s two complete episodes. I don’t recall, how long did it actually take Goku to power up the Kaio Ken x20?

Barry M Version (10/31/2001)

I had a strange thought about an even more extreme varient of the Kaio Ken cost progression. It occurs to me that Goku never uses, say, Kaio Ken x17. He just jumps up from x4 right to x10, and then to x20. Maybe there _aren’t_ any ‘inbetween’ levels. That would give a progression like this:

x2 = 60 x3 = 120 x4 = 240 x10 = 480 x20 = 960

Ok, maybe a bit silly, but at least it makes it achievable, right?


JJ: Actually, he does make some in-between ones, he never specifically says most of them, but on the way to Namek when his ship is thrown off course and he is heading for a sun and then gets stuck to the hull of the ship by some REALLY strong glue he was using to repair of breach of the ship’s outter hull (that was long winded), he uses Kaio Ken x14 and then uses a powered up Kamehameha wave to push his ship away from the sun. [deep breath] and there you have it.

Brock: *scratches head* And here I thought that was a KKx10…

Kaiza Version (11/02/2001)

In the rule book it says that you can’t recover hits lost to Kaio-Ken during battle. Ok, that seems logical enough. However instead of dividing, doubling, or minusing 60 hits using Kaio-Ken here’s a new idea. What if you simply subtracted the Kaio-Ken level from hits per action used with the extra energy. Plus if you use a Kaio-Ken you are not used to simply double the hits being minused. Example:

Kaio-Ken Lv.


Etc, etc, etc. . .

So if Goku used Kaio-Ken x2 on Vegeta for at 40+ actions (or phases) he would lose at least 80 hits that he can’t recover during the battle. If using x3 he did at least 10+actions(or phases) he would of lost 60 hits being unused to that level. At x4 he would lose only 8 hits for using only for a few seconds. So out of 240 hits Goku has already at least lost 148+ hits that cannot recover.

By the way Goku was used to Kaio-Ken x20 when fighting Frieza because he used it first when he was heading to Namek. He used first Kaio-Ken x10 and then Kaio-Ken x20 to break free of a stars gravity field that his ship was heading for.